Stock report, anyone?

[loremaster]

Well, I used to run RP sites and what I did was create something like a stock report every few days. I'd do a tiny bit of rolling and then I would post something like "Storm destroys a few Martell trading vessels... however, majority makes it through" or "Highway robbery continues on the Kingsroad... merchants harrass the crown for more protection" or "The Iron Bank is generous and gives a loan to the Lannisters."

I'd also stick a currency option on people's accounts. Since we're dealing with lords and subjects, it's easier to think of it more as a corporation than some guy's private cash. "The Tyrells increase their personal holdings by a 102 dragons today. 26 of those were spent in improving the Sea Road."

It takes time and dedication from the admin, but that's how I sometimes do it. I find it works well.

[wookie]

I'm not really that concerned as none of my characters are what you'd call wealthy or ever likely to be but here are my initial thoughts on your ideas Walder:

1) The events described sound a bit "Monopoly" in that they appear to be somewhat random and generic. I know events can be random but I'd like a little more cause and consequence introduced. i.e. Famine in Dorne - because character ruling has poor stewardship or troops have been away fighting for months.
Such a system would be harder to monitor and be more open to complaints from members of course...

2) I like the idea of personal 'currency' for the Houses but ultimately (and I've said this before on earlier notions) in order to have a working economy we need to have tangible outcomes for money. i.e. You have 200 gold dragons less coming in due to Famine in Dorne. This means you have to let some retainers go as you cannot avoid their fees.
This in turn may fuel an increase in banditry in your region as the now unemployed sellswords resort to less savoury means of income.

3) What can we buy? What is worth buying? When does being a Lannister become "unfair" on other houses due to their gold reserves, and does this matter as it's just a fact that the Lannisters are more wealthy than their neighbours so they have an inbuilt advantage in monetary terms.

In the very beginning we talked about a system where you could "buy" a better suit of armour, stronger warhorse etc which added tangible bonuses to those skills but I think it was decided at that point it was too fiddly to implement.

Anyway, it's going to be a tough job coming up with a workable solution which everyone likes so you have my sympathy!

[Imry Willfyre]

I think that as far as individual purchases go, anything that a local blacksmith can make won't put a dent in a House's treasure. Once you get to the level of Valyrian weaponry (which mind you, are nearly impossible to find and retrieve in one way or another), it would cost almost an entire treasury to pay someone to get rid of it.

As far as building things, I think we should make things simple...I'll elaborate. Instead of saying, "build a barracks in Runestone", you say Improve to Level 2 Defensive Structures in Runestone. Everyone would naturally start with a fair distribution of levels in different Structural categories (Offensive, Financial, Cultural, Housing, etc). I find it very important that we start on a simple level and then -possibly- expand outwards from there.

Beyond structures we could also have basic economy, supply, and military levels that are increased by the leader of the house (and possibly through longtime RPing). This probably won't be the fairest of things in the beginning-- we all know that the North and the Stormlands will be kinda lacking in the first two categories... but this isn't a totally fair world. It's Westeros.

So perhaps (and I've actually played a Westeros RPG where this happened) we had levels of Supply and Wealth that went from 1-6. When you spent it, you'd replenish it fairly quickly. Perhaps each house can replenish 2 wealth each year without any hassles or economic miracles. Additionally we could give "wealth" an approximate amount in dragons, perhaps a hundred thousand dragons for each wealth rank. Then there can be a private page displaying all purchases made by a house during a year, either by wealth rank or by number. Then you simply divide by 100,000 and find out how many wealth ranks were used. A similar system could be built for the military and supply levels.

[loremaster]

You know, Benfry, you just repeated everything I said, but with more details. It wouldn't be random, unless someone was simply being lazy.

Emmon, how would you go about determining each house's wealth rank? I assume we'd simply start with the active ones.

[Fel]

I think an economy system will yeild a large amount of complications and frustration for admins, and only a little amount of increased enjoyment in the game.

And I'm not just saying that because the Iron Islands would get totally shafted in any economy system.

[loremaster]

You know, even if I'll probably get a really impressive position for all the things I've been doing to raise my wealth as high as possible... I think Felryn has a valid point. How do we actually go about making it interesting for the old players without scaring off the new ones?

[Imry Willfyre]

I don't see how this economy is particularly scary. The only people who really need to get involved are the leaders of each house, who, by nature aren't new players. Additionally I'd think ranks would go a little like this:

House Baratheon:
Wealth: 5
Supply: 5

House Tyrell:
Wealth: 7
Supply: 6

House Hightower:
Wealth: 6
Supply: 7

House Blackwood:
Wealth: 6
Supply: 6

House Lannister:
Wealth: 10
Supply: 7

House Martell:
Wealth: 6
Supply: 6

House Arryn:
Wealth: 6
Supply: 6

House Stark:
Wealth: 5
Supply: 5

House Harlaw:
Wealth: 3
Supply: 3

The Crown's treasury:
Wealth: 7
Supply: 7

Additionally, each house gets back 8% of their troop count each year. 1 supply rank can be spent to gather an additional 1,000 men (out of the maximum capped amount).

Smaller houses run by players who wish to participate in the economy system may be created. A house the size of House Frey, for example, might have stats like...

House Frey:
Wealth:3
Supply:2

To deter development of massive armies, perhaps 1 supply rank equals enough food to feed an army of 10,000 for a year. War will require more preparation and planning. It's results will be more devastating and effective.

As for this system sounding complex...well it does SOUND complex, but it truly isn't. This can be worked out with little hassle, and it's great because if you don't want to be involved in it, you don't need to be!...but if you do, then you're more than welcome to join in the fun.

[Horas]

Maybe we should start by asking what we want out of an economic system.

Personally I'd like another way to compete with the other great houses of Westeros. So basically I'd like to be able to form trade alliances with my allies for mutual benefit and be able to put sanctions on my enemies. I do not want the economic system to be super fiddly, a pain, or the main focus of the game. Needing a solid economy to keep a long war going or raiding to hurt an opponent's economy sound fun to me. Placing level 2 defensive structures on the Eyrie... not so much. I mean, it's the Eyrie.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

[Imry Willfyre]

I agree, but I'd like to see a supply system as well. I'd like to see some actual tactics involved with our wars instead of "line up, draw your swords, kill, die".

[edricdayne]

Wow, you guys were busy while I was at school.

Emmon, I think you are really on a good track. I like the Supply and Wealth levels, and perhaps a supply system is based on a scale lower from supply. Like for 1 supply level, you have 5 levels of supply trains, so if Tallahar were to attack a supply train for the Stormlands it would take away a lot without dramatically crippling the Stormlands, and to actually cripple the Stormlands it would just take longer and more rp'ing.

This way, War would be more then just taking your armies and stopping and battling.

[House Dustin]

Hey, sorry guys, wasn't able to be around the computer last night. I should be around most of tonight, so contact me on AIM. I had worked quite extensively, up through probably December on an economics and then battles system. It ended up working that way because I set out to design an economics system that reflected a feudal system with the flavors of westeros.

My main motivation at the time, was that it bothered me that people sorta tended to raise and keep troops to no cost, and throw around large amounts of troops at kind of everything. Sorta like, well, I'm going to go get a cheeseburger, better take 250 guardsmen! Thing is, medieval/feudal armies in the field consisted of landed knights (nobles = killers), some smattering of professional soldiers, and a buncha peasants. Thing is, having all of those nobles and peasants on hand meant that they weren't somewhere working.

A standing army is just unheard of in those days, because no one could afford it, because economies at this time were really really bad, because feudalism does NOT distribute scarce resources effectively. It could be best described as peasants giving the food they grow to their lord in exchange for their lord not running them off the land, and theoretically defending them in times of trouble.

anyway, I set out to create a system where you had an economy that gave you money, and also defined how many troops you could muster (call banners), while also making keeping more than a very small standing army almost impossible. I worked up details for all the regions and each banner house, and basic calculations and rolls... They're all on a big spreadsheet, so that's what I'm looking to talk to Barclay, or anyone else, about.

[edricdayne]

Roland, you have stated many of my big pet-peeves about our current system.

[Imry Willfyre]

I think it wouldn't be too much to say he has summarized most of our problems with the current system. Our system's biggest problem is that it is extremely far from being realistic-- and it often makes playing frustrating.

[loremaster]

Oh, come on... a bloody 3 in wealth? I'm insulted! I should be in the upper digits by now! Grandmaster in finances, trade agreements with Pentos, running a vast operation spanning from Goldengrove to the North, practically made Sunsprear my piggy bank, not to mention the Crossing is still bringing in the gold on a regular basis...

Though on another note, I believe I've stumbled aross another problem. I think we'll need a way of keeping track of all such related events in the game, especially for players with a very active monetary life (i.e, Barclay, Frey, etc.).

[Imry Willfyre]

Easy- we create a new board for economic posts. As for what wealth I estimated you'd have...well that was just a guess, but I don't think that most bannerhouses would have more than 1 wealth rank if even that much.