Tourney at Casterly Rock - Joust

[shacklock]

sethgreyjoy said:

Tournaments centred around the mêlée, a general fight where the knights were divided into two sides and came together in a charge (MFr 'estor'). Jousting, a single combat of two knights riding at each other, was a component of the tournament, but was never its main feature.

From Wikipedia. For what it's worth.

Heh fair enough. Does it say anything abou the rules of Jousting then?

[The Flint]

but that seems to indicate that the melee should also begin as a mounted event?

[shacklock]

dkshideler said:

The other issue is that the melee was considered r a kind of training, while jousting was more... sport related. I believe Jousting developed later than Melees but I'm not sure.

edited: typos so i don't look as stupid as i am.

You could argue Jousting was training for Horse back lance/spear fighting...but I doubt many knighs fight with lances.

[sethgreyjoy]

As has been said jousting formed part of the tournament event from as early a time as it can be observed. It was an evening prelude to the big day, and was also a preliminary to the grand charge on the day itself. In the 12th century jousting was occasionally banned in tournaments. The reasons given are that it distracted knights from the main event, and allowed a form of cheating. Count Philip of Flanders made a practice in the 1160s of turning up armed with his retinue to the preliminary jousts, and then declining to join the mêlée until the knights were exhausted and ransoms could be swept up.

[The Flint]

shacklock said:

dkshideler said:

The other issue is that the melee was considered r a kind of training, while jousting was more... sport related. I believe Jousting developed later than Melees but I'm not sure.

edited: typos so i don't look as stupid as i am.

You could argue Jousting was training for Horse back lance/spear fighting...but I doubt many knighs fight with lances.

Well I think you could argue that you can hardly count as a knight UNLESS you fight with a lance. The initial cavalry charge was crucial to the knight's role on the battle field.

[shacklock]

dkshideler said:

shacklock said:

You could argue Jousting was training for Horse back lance/spear fighting...but I doubt many knighs fight with lances.

Well I think you could argue that you can hardly count as a knight UNLESS you fight with a lance. The initial cavalry charge was crucial to the knight's role on the battle field.

Very good point. Was completly overlooking the whole charge thing xD
Yea, they used to charge with lances then swap to longswords, aye?

[The Flint]

I think so. They may have reformed for multiple charges before switching to the sword. If my understanding is correct, their swords were designed to swing from the saddle as well. At least in the early days. (11th-13th centuries is what I'm thinking of)

[sethgreyjoy]

This is true.

[melon]

Also may I add in my reading I read that in the earlier days the Melee was the Main event but as time went on the Joust became the main Event.

[sethgreyjoy]

It wasn't that, Tallahar, it was, as time went on, the Joust became a singular event, all on it's own. Mianly because the other events were too dangerous for "civilized" folk, such as the melee.

[The Flint]

Ironically our jousting seems to be more deadly than our melee.

[melon]

I know that and it become more Important as it was Civilized.

[shacklock]

dkshideler said:

Ironically our jousting seems to be more deadly than our melee.

Jousting is more deadly but yea it seems more civilazed and gallent etc.

[House Dustin]

A knight is very specifically an armored mounted warrior, and usually a landowner. Any heavy cavalry would have been armed with spear or lance, with a sword for backup. I believe the spear/lance would have been rendered useless and/or dropped after an initial charge.

In the middle ages the massed charge was pretty much the king of the battlefield and could ride over most infantry through a frontal assault or other "shock" tactics. I think in most cases, if a charge could actually be mounted successfully the infantry formation would break before the charge. In the later phase of the middle ages (maybe 14th century on) the longbow and pike formations began to make knights obsolete or at least much less effective.

I think it's also very likely that European-style heavy cavalry was only effective in the right situation, insofar as "the ground" is concerned... and so as far as I know they actually fought dismounted a lot.

[Princess Ariel Targaryen]

The knight charge was a very powerful tool in its place, but the reason "its place" happened so often was because of European politics more than its own merits.

It is -extremely- powerful against infantry, -unless- the infantry are well formed and ready to repel a charge. Now, tradition dating from the Frankish horsemen decreed that a noble's place was in the cavalry, and "chivalry" (note the root word) developed in large part to protect the place of the rich men who could afford big horses and armor. Peasant levies composed most of the rest of the European force. In most cases, said levies were the next thing to useless and broke when you sneezed at them.

Westeros, to my knowledge, hasn't developed the pike-and-bow (let alone pike-and-shot) tactics that spelled the doom of the knight's pre-eminence (Dorne, as usual, excepted), so I imagine the lance charge is used in battle wherever possible.